Sympathy for the Disney Devil
Recently, reviewing Obi-Wan Kenobi has put me in a bit of an awkward position – not only with the fan community in general, but myself. My review of the third episode put me on the opposite side of most fans who lost interest in Star Wars after the Disney acquisition. It was a bit awkward for myself as well, because I (mostly) count myself in that camp as well. This culminated in a slight disagreement between myself and one of the other site authors, and I thought it might be interesting to explore that in a more transparent way, and to hopefully foster some diaogue between both sides of the aisle. With that in mind – I wanted to open up some of my own feelings on Star Wars – the past, present, and potential future – and how I judge things when reviewing. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this article – whether you’re a Star Wars Classic fan, a Disney continuity fan, an EU Fan (pre or post-Disney acquisition), or somewhere in between. Please keep all conversation civil down below – we’re all passionate about this property, but I’d like to believe we’re all fans in good faith.
With that – here’s where I find myself today.
Classic Star Wars: I’m a die-hard fan of the original trilogy and EU. I saw the original movies as a kid, but really came back to them with the Timothy Zahn novels and the original X-Wing computer game. These were a re-entry point for me, and I never slowed down afterwards. My philosophy in the old days was that whether I liked it or not, anything that happened in the old EU was canon. The thinking was, if they published it, put their name on it, and profited from it – then it happened. This was made possible because even though the quality of content could be uneven, good to bad was maintained (in my view at least) at at least a 50/50 ratio – and bad content tended to have retcon patches that would improve the original material.
My personal villain of the day back then was Kevin J. Anderson, although Barbara Hambly was right up there with him. In current day, I feel like any sins they committed can be forgiven based on what we’ve seen come out of Disney.
Prequel Era Star Wars: The prequel era movies were a strange period for me. I was stunned and not a fan of The Phantom Menace – but I think I might have been the only person on Earth who adored Attack of the Clones. I thought the Revenge of the Sith was fine for wrapping up the trilogy, but it also left me depressed, because I was afraid Star Wars was possibly leaving the stage, permanently. Overall I felt that there were flaws in the prequel trilogy, but mainly because I felt there was a better story in the material than what was actually presented. (Most of this had to do with Lucas re-interpretation of his own material. 20 years changes a mans sensibilities) I felt the Clone Wars series (both the Tartarovky cartoon and Cartoon Network series) improved the prequels and cemented their popularity with the generation it was made for, and am thrilled that this series has had a critical re-evaluation in recent years.
The Sequel Trilogy: The announcement of the Sequel Trilogy came as a shock. I was knocked out of my seat when I read that Lucas had sold him company, something that I believed he would never do. When he had said that he could never allow episodes 7, 8, and 9 to be made I believed him. I was nervous about the Disney acquisition, but also somewhat hopeful. The division of the prequels was still present, and I actually hoped that Jon Favreau might have been named as a director. (The Iron Man movies were still fresh in my mind.) I was nervous about the announcement of JJ as director, but hoped for the best. When the Force Awakens debuted, I was on the edge of my seat – I was enjoying the movie right up until about 3/4 of the way through – when we arrived at Takodana. Once the assault on Starkiller base came on screen, I got angry, and didn’t sit through the end credits. With a bit of distance from the movie, I convinced myself that even though it was a copy of A New Hope, that it was mostly still OK. I thought that there were intriuging elements introduced that would surely pay off in future movies.
By the time The Last Jedi trailer aired, I was fully invested again. When Luke said that “It was time for the Jedi to End”, I was onboard. I had an idea of where the story was going to go in my own mind, and I thought this was dovetailing with it. I had tickets purchased to see the movie on the premiere night, but fell horribly ill before it released. In retrospect, that should have been a warning sign. When I had recovered and was able to go see the movie, I wasn’t sure what to feel. I remember telling my best friend that I thought that Rian Johnson had made some “bold” decisions. I was scheduled to give a TV interview about the movie, and had to be careful with my language because I couldn’t give spoilers. I do remember saying when asked that the movie would be polarizing for the audience, and that you would either love it, or hate it.
Between Episodes 8 and 9, I was desperately trying to convince myself that this was all going to work out. I could not conceive of the idea that Lucasfilm would gamble with a property this important and not actually have a plan that would make sense. Then the teaser for Episode 9 launched. Palpatine’s laughter was heard at the end, and I realized they were doing a loose adaptation of Dark Empire. Shock was an understatement. What was widely considered the worst material in the old EU – the one point that ALL fans could agree was the one good thing that came out of the EU being relegated to “Legends” status – was what they were going to try and fix this with? Even so – I still held on. “Maybe they’ll pull this out – maybe, somehow, they’ll improve the source material!” Then I heard rumors about Star Destroyers with Death Star laser technology. That was the final straw for me. I went on Facebook and urged everyone to boycott the movie.
I did not buy a ticket.
For the first time in 20 years, I would not be seeing a Star Wars movie in theaters. When I did eventually see it, it was worse than I had thought it could be, and it cemented my feeling abou the sequel trilogy. This was a series made my activists and trolls, who had no respect for the original series, and whose work retroactively undid the original movies. As such – I cannot view them as canon. Moving Forward So – how to proceed? Up to that point right before The Rise of Skywalker, I had continued purchasing the spinoff novels and such. Most of the novels that took place post-original trilogy were disposed of.
When the Mandalorian debuted, I loved this series and saw it as a potential fork-point – Favreau and Filoni seemed to be working in such a way where the sequels were a possibility, but not an inevitability. I believe after the clear failure of The Rise of Skywalker, the political situation at Lucasfilm had changed, and they had not yet decided how to move forward. With the firing of Gina Carano, I cancelled my Disney+ subscription on the spot. I stopped purchasing most Star Wars material – what exceptions I gave myself were small, and only towards products or materials that could theoretically be compatible with the Old EU.
The Disney Portion of the Bookshelf (that still remains):
Note: These are the Disney books that I chose to retain. I have not read/finished all of them, and most of them will have some contradictory material to the original EU – but I felt these novels were *mostly* compatible and contained some value to them. To my mind, this isn’t much different than the Thrawn novels directly contradicting the prequels in several important ways, due to them being written before the prequels were made. Dooku Master & Apprentice (Prophesies reference the sequel trilogy, but they don’t HAVE to come true/be true) Dark Disciple (Contradicts Dark Horse material, but is in line with The Clone Wars series, which also contradicts other sources) Thrawn Ascendency Trilogy (Have only read the first book) Ahsoka (Contradicted somewhat by The Clone Wars) Catalyst Lords of the Sith (New Canon version of first succesful assault on the Empire, contadicts original EU somewhat) Tarkin (May have contradictions – been a long time since I read it, so I can’t recall) Solo (Movie adaptation) Thrawn A New Dawn Thrawn: Alliances Thrawn: Treason (Have not finished) Rogue One Battlefront: Twilight Company (May have contradictory material – been a long time since I’ve read it/can’t remember)
So why these novels? What do I feel Disney gets right? Most of the things that I think Disney actually gets right have to do with the Empire. I feel that the Disneys version of the Empire made the Empire even more vast, and even more powerful. While the Empire was always considered monolithic, Disney’s version feels monolithic and unbearably close. In their EU novels, the Empire feels like a weight hovering inches above you that could crush you to pulp should the weight fall. Because of this change, the threat is scaled up. In Catalyst, it is shown that the Empire has been established, but is not yet solidified. They are desperate for resources to build the war material and apparatus that they will need to maintain order. Surveillance is everywhere, and through a clever scheme, planets are effectively stolen and quarantined, carved up for their raw materials. Because the Empire is trying to move FAST, the Rebellion hardly has time to form. This leads to various groups who act indpedently and have not yet come together, nor stricken any significant blow against the Empire. Some groups are more violent – think Saw Gererras partisans, while others are still trying to effect political change. (Think Bail Organa in the Senate.)
If Disney is wise and truly wants to capitalize on live-action Thrawn, the best thing they could do in Andor is introduce Senator Garm Bel Iblis. What else? As mentioned in the comments of a recent article, Vaders position has been made closer to what I believe Georges original intention was. He is not a formal member of the Imperial government, nor a part of the military structure. In Disneys Star Wars, the Empire is an apparatus utilized by the Sith, but NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT THE SITH. The galaxy at large views the Empire as trying to maintain order and modernize the archaic structure of The Old Republic. This is part of the reason that I believe it makes sense that Obi-Wan did not know that Anakin survived Revenge of the Sith. In the time of the Old Republic, there were only 10,000 Jedi left. There were only 2 Sith Lords.
In a galaxy of thousands of star systems (let alone planets), how many could have ever even seen the Jedi? This is part of why the Clone Army was created. To really wrap your head around this – think of your own government. You may know who your president/prime minister/executive authority is. Perhaps you know what structure your legislature of parliament takes, and may be able to name some members. If you’re especially political, you may even be able to name some of the judges who sit in your highest courts. But could you name a single Ambassador? Do you think your neighbors could?
Keep in mind that when Vader is deployed, it is because something has gone wrong. He is unlikely to leave survivors in his wake, and if he does – it is unlikely those survivors will have heard his name spoken. All they will know is some terrifying machine-man arrived in their locale and stated that all he is surrounded by is fear and dead men – and then proved that statement true. I also think it is right that Disney has taken the position that Vaders position within the Imperial structure is ambiguous, and this causes conflict within the government and the military. Because he holds no formal position, nobody knows who he really is. All they know is that when he is in the Emperors favor, he can operate outside the chain of command and command resources, much to those military/government officials chagrin. This also keeps these other imperial officials divided and frustrated and not looking to gain too much power – which is what Tarkin was attempting to do with his Death Star.
A final thing I like – in the new canon, Palpatine occupied the Jedi Temple and converted it into his Imperial Palace. Yes, this DIRECTLY contradicts much of the EU, and creates some congnitive dissonance when trying to make all this work in my head – but it is a VERY Palpatine thing to do, so I buy it.
What doesn’t work from Disney? Where do I begin? They have screwed up almost every single legacy character in some very, very important ways. I think the jury is still out on Obi-Wan Kenobi, but they’re walking a very fine line. What they have done to Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, Boba Fett, and countless others is criminal. Much of this is because they want to promote their own characters, promote their own social justice ideology, and have contempt for their fans. But a part of it is also because of a weird nihilistic, morally relativistic attitude. Maybe they’re trying to be more “realistic”, but I find it very, very strange that so many aliens are shown to be supporters of the Empire. The old canon had the Empire being strictly humano-centric, and for a system that was supposed to show raw fascism, this made sense. It seems odd to me that Disney is obssesed with painting their villains as sympathetic, while denigrating their heroes as being just as culpable. This is zero-sum storytelling, and does not uplift the audience at all. Of course – that is possibly the point.
So – can Star Wars be fixed? Not without radical change. With that in mind, here are the things I would tell Disney if given the opportunity:
First – there needs to be a COMPLETE repudiation of the sequel trilogy. This is unlikely to happen. Second – stop preaching to your audience. What you are doing is nakedly transparent and insulting. While you’re at it – stop lying about your fans, and your former employees. In fact – apologize. Thirdly – respect the property you hold, and get back to telling uplifting stories. Finally – have some humility. It’s OK to admit you are and were wrong. Operate in good faith, and forgiveness can be found. Start with firing Kathleen Kennedy and the story group. It will be painful, but it will be an olive branch. Otherwise – you will go down as having ruined one of the greatest franchises to exist in the history of cinema.
For all the latest news that should be fun, keep reading That Park Place! As always, drop a comment down below.
I think the Fandom Menace contingent of Star Wars fans are stuck in a position where only the negative is noticed and amplified. There’s little to no recognition of the good, which I appreciate you pointing out, and no reflection on whether or not flaws are really flaws. No consideration of nuance or context.
For example, people seeing sexism in the Obi-Wan show because he’s either ped around by Leia (this only happened once) or “routinely” saved by Tala (this happened twice in one episode). Or people disliking Reva effectively for the same reason those people think Lucasfilm hired her for: she’s black (the diversity hire compaint). Even if that’s true, it’s a double-edged sword, and it doesn’t judge her performance fairly. I get that people are tired of seeing the same leftist tropes and identity quotas in entertainment, but getting annoyed at it is taking the bait. It doesn’t help the situation.
Fortunately in the case of John Boyega, it seemed to have gotten through that most fans liked him because of the potential he and that role had, and Lucasfilm wound up looking more racist by minimizing him in Chinese movie posters or sidelining him in the trilogy. I remember that bait-and-switch. I’m hoping it will turn out the same for Moses Ingram, but as it is, Lucasfilm is winning this PR battle against fans because, again, they’re taking the bait. I appreciate that this site looks into the alleged messages, but it makes the mistake of jumping to conclusions: it’s because the Obi-Wan show is effectively irredeemable, at least until the next episode.
There’s no forgiveness anymore. No real possibility for redemption, or recognition that Lucasfilm, just like the fanbase, is not a monolith. This requires real insider info and insight*, so not everyone will see it, but Lucasfilm is still undergoing a quiet civil war. The people producing these shows are not the same people running the social media or who are in the Story Group, even if they do talk to each other. Whether you see this or not, you have to see that hating your enemy forever doesn’t work, especially when you misunderstand who your enemy is.
*in this case, my source is Kamran Pasha.
You make some good points but it also needs to be pointed out that this is the same Disney that got caught bragging about how they slip agendas into their programing. Its hard not to see everything as an agenda when the people making it tell you that is what they are doing. Also as much as I like and respect Kamran he does exactly what you said about the Fandom Menace. He puts out a narrative that he is so emotionally invested in that he sees proof of that narrative everywhere (an instagram account is taken down so that must be Elon Musk because he bought twitter).
Correction on the point about Kamran: he makes predictions that often come true. That gives him something in common with Doomcock and Midnight’s Edge, two other groups with insiders whose predictions have come true. But with Kamran, he has spent a long time working in Hollywood and continues to do so. That gives his insights much more weight, and unlike the majority of talking heads in the fandom, he goes against the general consensus.
There was nothing to correct about Kamran. My point was he makes predictions he is emotionally invested in. That makes him look for proof he was right. Just like someone predicting something will be bad. They look for proof they’re right. Kamrans connections have nothing to do with it.
Sure they do. Inside sources within Lucasfilm who tell him thinks about the productions or the people in charge; other sources in Hollywood who tell him what others think or know about people associated with Lucasfilm; and his own many years of experience working in field. You’re trying to dismiss them by suggesting he only predicts whatever he wants to happen, and I’m not convinced of that yet.
On one hand you have the theory of the hopeful, as you put it. On the other hand you have, “They need to say what I want to hear or I won’t believe otherwise,” which I think is safe to say will never happen. So it looks like we’re at an impasse.
I understand what you’re saying, but again, it seems to leave us at an impasse to insist neither side is right nor wrong. The only takeaway there is nobody really knows what’s going on, and so it’s probably best not to get too emotionally invested. Let each other say their peace and hope no fights break out I guess.
Good or bad, the impasse is temporary. Eventually it will be clear who is right or wrong. I’m sure I’m right to take issue with how this site and at least one other site, BoundingIntoComics, talks about this show because it’s not based on the whole truth, only part of it. People who already share their bias keep thinking and feeling the same way, and the divide in the fandom grows. The net effect is more people are angry and pessimistic more of the time when there’s no need to be, whether they represent the majority or not. I don’t think that’s right, so I want to speak up about it.
Correction on the point about Kamran: he makes predictions that often come true. That gives him something in common with Doomcock and Midnight’s Edge, two other groups with insiders whose predictions have come true. But with Kamran, he has spent a long time working in Hollywood and continues to do so. That gives his insights much more weight, and unlike the majority of talking heads in the fandom, he goes against the general consensus.
EDIT: To your point about Disney and agenda, this is a symptom of corporate infiltration by activists. The leak that revealed them, I believe, is part of an effort by Chapek and the money men to exfiltrate them from the company, including their subsidiaries.
That people feel this way about Disney after that leak is natural, but it’s a mistake to stop there. Not everyone at Disney is in favor of agenda. Reacting to it whenever you catch a glimpse or notice any pattern of agenda in media is taking the bait at this point. It’s part of the reason why we’re seeing headlines about Moses Ingram and racist fans: Lucasfilm–be it Pablo or Jason Ward or whoever–either saw that people online already didn’t like her because of diversity casting, or they counted on them hating her and capitalized on it to further discredit critics. This could have been with or without the knowledge or approval of the people who cast her in the role or who wrote the character beforehand. We don’t know.
I am sorry Mike I think my point is getting lost in translation. I was trying to say that if Bill and Ted are both excited about Police Academy 6 and Bill predicts it will be awesome and Ted predicts it will suck they are both emotionally invested in their predictions. They will both look for any signs to confirm their predictions. It’s just human nature. You had pointed to the fandom menace as looking to confirm their predictions and I was trying to say that both sides do the same thing.
I mentioned Kamran because you pointed his name out in your post and I foolishly thought it would be easier to use a real person as an example. I did not mean that he doesn’t have great sources or insights, that is why I said it was irrelevant. It seems we were not talking about the same things at the same time.
I think what I am trying to say it there is nothing wrong with getting emotionally invested in your take. It just seems counter productive… maybe not the right words… to get emotionally invested in people who have the opposite take. You, me and everyone else reading this has strong feelings about this stuff and your liking or disliking it shouldn’t effect my liking or disliking it. Maybe an impasse isn’t always a bad thing.
While I don’t think I completely agree with your opinion I will happily support your right to have it and your ability to voice it, the same for Kamran, Doomcock, this website and any others. Impasse or not I do appreciate your willingness to share your opinions and engage in this conversation.
I guess this also leaves me in a weird place sort of. I consider myself “Fandom Menace” in the sense that I have no choice but to completely reject the sequels. Even having taken that position, I’d much rather that Disney was producing content that I enjoyed, and I do think it’s important to point out what they’re doing “right.”
Appreciate the recognition of Kamran Pasha as well – he’s one of my favorite prognosticators, and I miss seeing him on Midnights Edge.
That’s part of the reason that I haven’t actually made a judgement on Reva yet. I’ve heard the rumors about how her story could resolve, and if it does resolve that way I have a feeling a lot of people will be upset. I *do* think there’s a way that it could be handled well, though – I don’t think we’ll be able to tell until we actually see it.
As to Moses Ingram, I think it’s a little unfair that her performance is being called “one-note.” I have far bigger problems with the other inquisitors than I have with her, so far.
I just wish they were spending a bit more time making sure that tonally, their series are coherent, and that there aren’t massive logical problems with how scenes play out.
(As an example – a friend of mine pointed out that in the Vader suit-up scene, the first thing you see is Vaders arms being attached…but when you see the backplate being put on a few moments later the arms are no longer attached. Is this a major issue? No – but it shouldn’t be missed by multiple editors, continuity folks, etc.)
This is similar to the problem with Leia “leading Obi-Wan around”. My problem isn’t so much that Leia is taking command – they do want her to feel like Leia – it’s that they’re leaning into it so hard that it starts to become unbelievable. It’s very “Disney”, where the young child is naturally precocious, sassy, and smarter than all of the adults. All of this to me has more to do with tone than anything.
The thing about the tone of the show is that, despite Obi-Wan’s emotional state and stature, it is still fundamentally lighthearted and hopeful, just like George Lucas’ Star Wars ought to be. This tone is maintained in large part because of Leia. I think people are missing the forest for the trees when they fixate on little things like she does too much for a 10 year old. Please; if Anakin can pod race at the same age, then why can’t Leia display emotional intelligence, or even Force intuition, at her age?
This is what I mean when I think fans are stuck in fixating on the negative. They’ve been conditioned this way not just by Lucasfilm’s self-immolation since Kathy took over, but also by the Fandom Menace that either doesn’t know the war is ending or never wants it to end–either because it keeps them in business or because they love the taste of the blackpill. The injection of politics and activism into the equation–either right or left–further muddles the issue and divides people. As if they forgot they’re here because they were Star Wars fans, and are now here to be political activists in the opposite direction.
I feel like I’ve been misunderstood a bit when I’m talking about “tone”, and my complaints about Leia. I’ll try to rephrase here to see if I can get it out a little more artfully.
I agree that there is a certain goofiness to Star Wars, and that is a necessary component of the series. The roots of Star Wars go back to the old adventure serials, and they were nothing if not goofy.
My issues with tone are twofold I think – once issue is “time and place”, and the other is “quality.”
For time and place – a fair share of what we’re seeing out of Obi-Wan is an exploration of PTSD and dealing with loss. These are weighty topics, and they’re filled with drama and pathos. I don’t think all of Star Wars needs to be that weighty, or that it needs to necessarily be dark – however, when you’re entertaining that mood, it’s jarring when you suddenly cut to campy villains and poorly choreographed chase scenes. There’s a time and place for that kind of goofy humor, and sometimes you need something like that to lighten the tone – but I can’t help but feel that they’re choosing all the wrong times to do that.
The second issue is quality. Some of these issues may have to do with shooting in the Volume, I’m not sure – but there are some scenes that look jarringly out of place. (Sometimes this doesn’t matter – it can be chalked up to an homage to the homemade look of the original adventure serials) – but in others, it’s hard to understand how shots were allowed through editing.
The best example I can give here is the parkour scene given to Reva in episode 2. I think there was a way to give her a “stalking” scene that could work, but the wirework was obvious and instead of looking menacing, it looked silly. As others have pointed out, it also didn’t work with the edit that they took – with Ben and Leia being on the ground while Reva was still somehow loping across the rooftops.
As for Leia – I actually thought that Leia was quite good in episode 3, especially in her quieter moments with Obi-Wan. My issue has less to do with the actress playing Leia, and more to do with something that is a little difficult to nail down. I *think* this is coming back down to quality, but not in the sense that something is poorly shot.
This is kind of what I’m talking about when I mention that this is the “Disneyfication” of something. It’s the same thing that I notice when any of the Inquisitors NOT named Reva are on the screen – I go from something that feels like Star Wars, to suddenly feeling like The Descendents. It’s something ephemeral I can’t quite nail down, other than to say that they’re going a little too far into the “hammy/campy” zone.
I actually think these scenes (particularly with Leia) could work if they’d just dial it back about two notches.
I think these are a couple of nitpicks. Whether or not the kidnappers are campy is subjective, but as you pointed out, a little campiness is in the DNA of Star Wars. Look at all the caricatures in the Prequels for obvious examples. Against that backdrop, you have relatively unremarkable criminals who are quickly disposed of later in the episode; barely more memorable than poor Greedo. I don’t think the chase needed to be particularly better choreographed than it was in order for it to deliver a tense chase scene where they kill the one guard who ran to little Leia’s rescue. The scene wasn’t funny at all unless you’re looking to make fun of it.
I arrive at the same conclusion for your comments of the Reva scene. I also find it funny and ironic that her only action scene where she’s seen displaying her clear Force abilities and acrobatics are dismissed snd denigrated as silly or low quality. From my own first viewing, I just thought, “Wow, that looked pretty cool. I liked the way she used the Force and kicked off the walls and stuff.” That’s all the scene is and needed to do. What is this nonsense about “oh it looked cheap”, “I can see the wires”, or “why is she still on the rooftops”? None of those things ever crossed my mind, particularly the latter one because I remember the blaster fire she witnessed on the rooftops being very far away from her before she started to give chase, and it didn’t take her long at all to wall-kick her way down to street level. So it seems clear to me you’re either parroting Fandom Menace armchair directors from YouTube or you were looking for flaws yourself.
I’m also not surprised you can’t articulate what it is you didn’t like about Leia, because I don’t think there’s anything there to really dislike. Despite this, people hate her anyways because they think she’s taking air time away from Luke, and that just shouldn’t happen according to them. They’re bitter that Leia is there instead of Luke, because they believe intersectional feminists are still running and creating Star Wars content. So they’ll hang on this scene or that, this character, that actor, etc.; and if all else fails, just hang on to that feeling alone. I think it’s clearly not about the content anymore; it’s about the politics and the meta of the culture war, where most people only take tweets and news articles at face value and nothing else, giving them only a shallow awareness and understanding of this war they’re so engaged in.
I’m sorry to come down so hard on you with this, but I these are my thoughts. I think these criticisms are ultimately inconsequential, if not arbitrarily made for the purpose of either cutting the show down directly, or validating the opinions of people that only seem interested in watching the world burn.
To think someone out there hates Kevin J Anderson and Barbara Hambley as much as I do. ?
Although Kevin actually did well with the young Jedi series. His main novels though were very derivative.
The one other thing I would add to what they need to do, is respect canon. Continuity is important for fans. WDW, you may be ok with Obi not knowing Vader is Anakin, but Yoda knew in RotS and told Obi in that movie. The Grand Inquisitor already died in Rebels – killing him here in Obi Wan breaks Canon. Consistency matters.
The funny thing is, another one of my guilty pleasures was one of Kevins worst novels – Darksaber. (I received that novel for my 19th birthday, so that may have given it a favorable glow.)
Looking back now, I see Kevin’s novels much more fondly than I did at the time of release. Part of that is because I think he had good ideas, but wasn’t a particularly gifted prose writer. Another reason is that I think *some* goofiness works in Star Wars. Some of Kevin’s goofiness made me roll my eyes, but other parts I appreciated.
I ABSOLUTELY agree that continuity is the most important aspect that made Star Wars fiction stand out. We WANT our universe to be unified and coherent, and this was the only franchise that ever actually tried to do that.
I would point out again though, the issue wasn’t about whether or not Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was Vader. There’s no question about that – the question is whether or not Obi-Wan knew that Vader had survived, and I think there’s a very logical argument that can be made that he didn’t.
I also believe they’re pulling a bait-and-switch with the Grand Inquisitor. I think it’s silly, and I don’t understand why they’re doing it – but I’m certain we’ll see him alive again before the end.
“but it also left me depressed, because I was afraid Star Wars was possibly leaving the stage, permanently.”
But why? What’s wrong with Star Wars ending? You either die a hero, or you live long enough to become the villain. Not clear to me why you would want Star Wars to be milked till it sucks.
Are we talking about now, or then?
I think it’s important to remember that back then (2005), Star Wars was still doing very well. There was a heated debate about the prequels, but the novels and comics were still doing very well, and the computer gaming scene was still pretty hot.
The situation now is a bit different. I would prefer that Star Wars correct course and trash what hasn’t worked – but if they insist upon continuing to support the sequels, I think it should die.
The only thing I felt was interesting was The Jedi until I realized The Jedi Order was destroyed in the Prequels and any attempt to bring them back has failed over and over again. That’s pretty much what Star Wars is. Another chase scene. Another Jedi dying. Then there’s the opposite of another Sith killing one another for advancement. (Reva killing her boss was so predictable even when unpredictable. You kinda expected it, but not so soon.) I really wish they will go beyond this simplistic storytelling and go to something new and exciting. Disney made it plain they have nowhere else to go.
Thinking about your point about normal people not being able to name an ambassador or even any other politician I would have to counter with Obi-Wan is not a normal person. He knows of the Inquisitors and he knows that he and all of his friends are being hunted to the death and most importantly he can use the force. Your point makes perfect sense in an example like that but I bet your average person being hunted is more up to date on who might be hunting them.
Don’t they have TV news on the Outer Rim?
I guess I would just put it this way. I think it’s important to remember that the galaxy knows NOTHING about the Sith. As far as the galaxy at large was concerned, they were eliminated 1,000 years ago, and the Jedi suppressed their knowledge.
The people of the galaxy DO know about the Inquisitors, and they have a certain “look.”
To anybody who DID become aware of Vader, he would probably appear to be just another Inquisitor. Obi-Wan clearly knows about THEM – but because he never saw Vader in the suit, and because Vader is not well known outside of the upper echelons of the Empire – how could he know?
So just a friendly thought (I think it’s funny that people believe we’re juxtaposed against one another):
Wouldn’t Obi-Wan know Anakin / Darth Vader is still alive via the Force?
“Use your feelings, Obi-Wan, and find him you will.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjCxZampcs
I don’t have anything to really support this, it’s just my own personal storytelling preferences – but I’ve always hated it when The Force is mega-powerful. Starkiller is fun to play in The Force Unleashed, but he’s not a character I would want to see make the leap to canon.
I prefer the vision of the Force as giving the Jedi a slight edge over a non force-sensitive individual – short-term precognition, mind tricks, increased speed and strength, but only for short periods. This is when a Jedi is using the Force.
The Sith are different – they attempt to wrest control of the Force, to master it – it gives them increased power, but at the expense of corruption. This is why Obi-Wan could reach a Level 9 in swordplay, but the Dark Side is what pushes you to level 10.
The other times when you see the Force working over enormous distances, it’s not really somebody trying to use the Force – it’s the Force itself tapping the user on the shoulder. This is where Force visions manifest, or long-distance communication occurs – because the Force wills it. These visions or communication are usually ambiguous as well, not providing clear information – just impressions. (This is another reason that I think the Force-Calling ability that Rian Johnson introduced is ridiculous)
In pure storytelling terms, I don’t think the Jedi should be Superman, and I think it’s a mistake when you see them using crazy powerful abilities. (Like flinging Star Destroyers away from a planet)
Because of this (admittedly, purely my own interpretation of how the Force should be used in storytelling), I believe that Obi-Wan could sense Anakin on Coruscant because they were in the same rough geographical region, but I don’t believe he could sense him from planets away, using his own power.
On the other hand – if Vader were to somehow die before Obi-Wan knew that he were still alive, I believe the Force would then impart that message to Obi-Wan – shocking him with the knowledge that Anakin was actually still alive, and had just died.
The Force is a plot device – like a ghost providing the necessary exposition for the next act of the play.
I agree with you about how the Force should work completely. It has become too powerful. Thank you by the way for your posts and reply’s, this is my perspectives from a couple of your reply’s so I apologize if it runs long
The Sith staying hidden for a 1000 years could be explained by them wanting to say hidden. The Jedi couldn’t sense them because they did not know what to sense. The Sith revealed themselves and now the Jedi know what to look for. However for ease we can disregard that here and focus on Obi-Wan and Anakin. I think the closeness of their relationship would impart a greater bond through The Force. Not that they could use it like GPS, just that if one of them died they would feel a disturbance, very much like Obi-Wan did when Alddran was destroyed.
My point about the Inquisitors was simply that they did not exist when Kenobi went into hiding but Vader did. If he is laying so low that he wasn’t paying attention to what is going on off planet he would recognize them as bad news but not know who or what they are.
I have found that the best part of Disney Star Wars is the books that have shown some other aspects of the Empire. I believe in Lords of the Sith which took place a couple of years before Kenobi, the Free Ryloth Movement had encounters with Vader and knew his name upon sight. It has been awhile since I read that book so I apologize if I am mistaken about that. I do know that by the end they knew his name and some survived to tell the tales.
Lastly for lack of a better example… At this point Obi-Wan is bin laden. He is the target of a massive manhunt, he is hiding in a remote cave, he has to assume his picture is everywhere and there is a huge reward for his whereabouts. Like bin laden it would be shocking if Kenobi did not know who was hunting him, Tim from Tampa might not know the workings of the hunters but Kenobi would. Bail Organa has the ability to contact him directly. Organa as a senator would have at the very least have heard rumors about Vader. Even if he didn’t know it was Anakin he would have contacted Kenobi to warn him about the rumor of the Emperors rumored hit man that is menacing the galaxy.
I think all the debate and division in the fans shows exposes the current Lucasfilm’s inability to deliver. There are groups in Lucasfilm, Faverau’s crew, that can, but they cannot do every production. And even if they do deliver, it seems they get sabotaged by the incompetent side (see the Gina Carano situation).
Disney needs to quit procrastinating and clear out the troublemakers. Damage to the brand and fan trust can be repaired, but not while the usual suspects remain employed there.
Agreed. There’s still a quiet civil war going on within the company. For anyone who doesn’t believe something like this is happening, I would recommend they watch The Offer for another example of how individuals within studios or holding companies interfere with the business for their own benefit.
The phrase “quiet civil war” made something pop into my head and I was wondering what other peoples thoughts might be. Do you think the fact that it is a quiet civil war is hurting Disney? For years there was little if any evidence outside the company of this going on, now the leaked videos, preemptively calling the fans racist, etc. have people taking more notice. The problem is if normal people don’t know about the civil war then to them it is all just Disney. If you didn’t know that there was warring factions inside Disney and you looked at their Star Wars releases over the last 10 years do you think it would change your opinion of Disney Star Wars?
I think the general public don’t really pay attention. Star Wars isn’t something important to them, other than that they’re happy to watch a movie when it comes out. They’re looking for an afternoon of entertainment – they pay for their ticket, watch the movie, kill an afternoon, and walk out and don’t think about it much afterwards.
Also, in reply to a comment you made up above, I agree that the Sith wanted to remain hidden. I’m not sure if that would have much bearing on the Jedi being able to detect them when they reappeared. After all, Sidious was right in front of them – the Jedi had clouded vision because they had strayed away from the true path by becoming dogmatic and separated from the people they were meant to serve.
Had Qui-Gon lived, he would’ve sussed Sidious out immediately.
Regarding the Inquisitors – I disagree that they weren’t around when Kenobi went into hiding.
My interpretation of things is that it wasn’t just the Grand Inquisitor who turned his cloak during Order 66. It has always been my supposition that the first batch of Inquisitors were ALL temple guards – they abandoned their posts and left the Jedi Temple undefended so Vader and the 501st could enter the temple unmolested. Their other responsibilities involved training what would be the next generation of Inquisitors – the force-sensitive children that Palpatine had been quietly collecting.
Ben may not have been aware of it immediately, but the Inquisitors didn’t take long to become known. He would certainly know of them. Whether he knows that they were temple guards may be a matter up for debate. My contention is that because the Sith are basically unseen and unknown to the galaxy, Vader would be mistaken for any other Inquisitor.
Finally – To the vast majority of people, they don’t really care or pay attention to continuity – even if the news of an “internal civil war” at Lucasfilm were broadcast to the public, they wouldn’t really care.
What is hurting Disney more is the leaked “Reimagine Tomorrow” videos and them taking firm political stances. That DOES get the attention of the public.
What also must still be hurting Disney is the billions of dollars in debt that Iger left the company with thanks to business deals like acquiring 20th Century Studios, kicking off Disney+ to compete with Netflix and doing business with China. Reimagine Tomorrow was a time bomb he left the company to serve his own ambitions of being the next Democratic President.
To clarify a little bit. My point about the Sith is that the last known Sith was 200 years or so before Yoda was born so to our knowledge there is no living Jedi to ever experience a Sith. I would liken their ability to “sense” each other like a smell. There is a difference in smell between a fire from a fire place and a brush fire. It can be pretty subtle but it is there, if you live somewhere there are a lot of fire places but no brush fires you wouldn’t really know the difference if all of the sudden there was a distant unseen brush fire. If you think of the number of Jedi around it would always smell like fire places, so much so that you probably would stop even noticing the smell (its just there). The Sith reveal was a brush fire that destroyed most of the fire places, it was the type of event that would make the remaining Jedi not only know the difference between the two but also make them vigilant to the difference.
My other clarification was about the internal civil war question. I’ll use a different example for my question. Lets say there is a internal civil war at McDonald’s that you know nothing about. One faction has been slowly taking over and quietly replacing the meat in their burgers with imitation meat unknown to the public. Their sales start dropping, the general public doesn’t know why but they just think it doesn’t taste the same. Then an employee leaks a video of a couple high level employees bragging to themselves about the switch. They launch the McRib again to try and bring some fans back but a couple days before the launch the official twitter announces that if people don’t come back for the McRib they are biggots. My question was more about if you had no idea that there was an internal civil war where there are people trying to restore the company to their former level would you hold out hope for McDonald’s or would you just write them off as a lost company from your childhood? I think that is the dangerous place Disney Star Wars is right now, normal people that don’t know about the internal fight just know that for whatever reason Star Wars seems like it is missing something and they don’t know people are fighting to fix it so why are they going to keep seeing it?
I ask this question because at this point I have only watched the first two episodes of Kenobi. My wife who is very much a normie knows nothing about any of this stuff going on, she doesn’t care so I don’t bother her with it. After the first episode she told me “I was really excited for Kenobi but now I feel like I just need to get through it”. A couple days later we were about 10 minute into the second episode and she said “this writing is so terrible!” Last night I asked her what she wanted to watch and she said “would you be upset if I said anything but Kenobi?” My wife grew up with Star Wars but she is by no means a huge fan and she went from excitement to avoidance in about a week. Watching this has made me realize that Disney doesn’t have as much runway with the general public as they might think they do.
I wanted to wait until Lorn got back to you on your questions, but something about what you shared stuck out to me that got me wondering. You said your wife saw the 1st 10 minutes of ep2 and said the writing was terrible. By that point Obi-Wan had already met with Haja and made his way into the spice den looking for Leia. Another five minutes takes us to Reva putting a bounty out on Kenobi. What do you think she meant about the writing? The only negative impression I got from that first part of the episode was just the dark and seedy setting, and maybe that Obi-Wan looked a little suspicious before he disguised himself.
I need to apologize pucstpr39, I missed this comment on my first go-through, and can’t now reply directly – I’m forced to reply to Mike – I hope you see this!
Your experience is different from what I have seen. I don’t think the general public really notices that anything is wrong, because I don’t think they think about it that deeply. That may like Star Wars, but it’s just a couple of hours entertainment for them.
For most people, Star Wars is just the movies – MAYBE the TV shows, if they happened to hear about The Mandalorian.
The exception is those kids who grew up with the prequels and watched The Clone Wars – they’ll have more knowledge of the animated shows and ancillary properties.
I think what is going to hurt Disney the most is the negative PR that has been generated by their Reimagine Tomorrow initiative, their spat with Florida, their close ties to China, and their ridiculous prices in a heavily inflated economy. I don’t think most backlash to Disney will be driven by outage over Star Wars – I think that’s restricted to the die-hard fans, and they’re a minority compared to the general public.
I asked your question and her response was that she did not remember exactly what made her say it out loud at that point since it had been a couple days. Her thoughts on it surprised me as the conversation lasted quite a bit longer than I thought it would.
To sum up she said that while she did not really think any Star Wars was particularly well written but it always had a soul. She does not feel any soul from Disney Star Wars and she feels like no characters have been developed by Disney (except maybe Mando but she really just likes Grogu and thinks the show is kinda boring). She feels that Kenobi like Boba is a pointless show since she doesn’t see a story forming, it just feels like “stuff she didn’t need.” She asked if I thought Vader and Kenobi would see each other in the show, because she thought they didn’t see each other since their fight in the prequels. She said that she views Disney and Star Wars as a married couple that needs a divorce but instead every show they put out is like a fix it baby and she can’t imagine ever being excited about Star Wars again.
It was pretty eye opening for me actually since I really did not think she thought that much about Star Wars. I thought she liked the recent stuff more but it turns out she has been feinting interest because of me.